142 - Ethics of Kickstarter

[matt]

In response to Steve Swink's excellent GDC talk on the ethics of running a kickstarter, I give my own thoughts on the subject.

[JPrice]

It's funny because Kickstarter is a great avenue for supporting ideas, but there's also a huge target placed on your head (Metophorically anyway haha). I mean people are expecting something specific and it's basically paying for an idea, if you do any part of that wrong then you could end up alienating a large part of your audience. So yeah I think it's important to be ethical on Kickstarter projects. You always want to give your backers the best service possible and I think that you've achieved that Matt

I mean you're always in contact with backers, whether it be on these forums or through Kickstarter updates. Also you seem to genuinely listen to your backers and implement some ideas into the game that originated on these forums (Things like the sprint animation and dialogue exchanges). To even have this level of involvement in the community is a large undertaking, especially when you're developing the game on the side! I'm sure it's much appreciated around these parts as well hahaha

Also slightly off topic but, you mentioned the designers notebook in this video and it makes me think "Man I wish I could have gotten that on the Kickstarter". I guess that it didn't cross my mind much at the time I backed the game but I know that I would have loved to read into the creation of what would eventually become Neverending Nightmares. Ah well, you live and you learn I guess!

[matt]

I mean you're always in contact with backers, whether it be on these forums or through Kickstarter updates. Also you seem to genuinely listen to your backers and implement some ideas into the game that originated on these forums (Things like the sprint animation and dialogue exchanges). To even have this level of involvement in the community is a large undertaking, especially when you're developing the game on the side! I'm sure it's much appreciated around these parts as well hahaha

It is definitely a big task, and the first thing I do when I get off of work is log onto the forums. (Well, I guess lately my wife and I have been doing T25 work outs after work the last month, but AFTER that) I honestly think that you guys are helping me make the game better. I truly think that if left to my own devices, the game wouldn't be nearly a good. In some sense, it's kind of weird. You guys are paying ME to help make my game, but I think being involved in the development of the game is a fun experience if you haven't been toiling away in the development trenches for over 10 years like I. (hahaha, I sound so bitter and grizzled). I think that's perspective that some game developers lose - that it is FUN being part of development. I remember working on the Incredibles and how happy I was working overtime even though the game was crappy. hahaha

Even if Neverending Nightmares was AMAZINGLY successful, I think I might still do a kickstarter for the next game just because I think having a community with some "skin in the game" is more helpful than giving out builds to random people and dealing with a ton of feedback from people who might not even be that interested in the game to begin with.

Also slightly off topic but, you mentioned the designers notebook in this video and it makes me think "Man I wish I could have gotten that on the Kickstarter".

Well, I'm still actually selling it on the slacker backer page, but I actually feel kind of bad because it's $20. While I think it'll be cool I feel kind of weird asking for money after the kickstarter is over, and I don't know if $20 is a good price for it. I kind of added it during the "desperation" phase of the kickstarter, where I was trying everything I could think of to get some extra dough. The problem is now I'm sort of locked into a pricing model because I don't want anyone to feel ripped off. Next time, I'll be sure to include my notes in the regular rewards because I think that may be a lot more compelling than the inner circle (where the videos got like 6 views) or perhaps the novel.

Oh well. Live and learn!

[ranger_lennier]

Well, I definitely don't think you've been unethical, and we do all get something extra from the community involvement. Plus, I think a lot of people like the idea of helping fund a cool idea that might not otherwise get made. It's like being a patron of the arts on a small scale.

But it is true that it's not a good deal, in a sense, since the backers pay money without being sure a project will be completed, let alone that it will be good. And they don't get any profit out of that risk. You saw this on display with some of the complaints about Oculus Rift being sold to Facebook for $2 billion dollars. From one perspective, they had nothing to complain about, because Oculus fulfilled its promises to backers. Really, a valuation that large should be seen as a good sign that the company will be successful in bringing people's VR dreams into reality. But the idea that they'd made such a massive profit starting with that initial Kickstarter funding didn't sit right with some backers.

I'm not sure how difficult this would be from a legal and organizational perspective, but people like Colin Moriarty at IGN have suggested that we instead use a sort of crowdfunded venture capital model. So a developer could say that in exchange for funding their game, they were willing to sell a set percentage of it. Then, after it was released, each backer would get a portion of the revenues based upon the size of their contribution. Depending on how well it sold, they might make money, or they might lose some. If the infrastructure was available, would you be interested in working under a model along those lines?

Also, I think you could eventually offer the developer's notebook and other bonuses for a lower price if you wanted to make them more accessible to people. After all, the most common reward is going to be a copy of the game, and surely everyone expects that it will eventually go on sale for less than they pledged for it, and won't feel ripped off because of that. I don't see any reason to think of other rewards differently (except ones like in game portraits that have to be done before the game is released).

[JPrice]

Well, I'm still actually selling it on the slacker backer page

Ohhhhhhh, well I think I'll probably get that soon
I know that you probably think that it may be too expensive but it's important to keep to the Kickstarter pricing that you gave, otherwise people may feel like they're getting ripped off otherwise. In that respect I can understand! It's not terribly expensive anyways, around £12 for me so haha

[gagaplex]

Kickstarter is a lot about trust, because at the end of the day we have nothing but the word that whatever project will ever see the light of day.
But you, matt, were always very active and interactive, both in the comment section of the Kickstarter itself, the updates and now the forum.
I do appreciate that a lot, but I must say this is - at least in my limited experience - not the norm. A lot of projects go with the updates and some, like Mighty No. 9, also try to actively involve the community, but - funnily enough - they are too big. I backed that and I'm glad I did, but I'm not at all involved in the community because it's so gargantuan that a single voice is completely drowned out.
So what we have here is not typical and probably also helped by the overall smaller (and thus more individualized) community.

[matt]

people like Colin Moriarty at IGN have suggested that we instead use a sort of crowdfunded venture capital model. So a developer could say that in exchange for funding their game, they were willing to sell a set percentage of it.

That actually exists (https://www.fundedbyme.com/en/) and the developers of "U55 - End of the Line" are turning to it to get their game off the ground. You can check it out here.

The problem I see with that is it's a neverending accounting nightmare. Firstly, I look at the numbers on U55's page, and they mean nothing to me. I am lending what, and I get what? When do I get it? For example, with Neverending Nightmares, we worked several months unpaid. If we were sharing the profits, would we pay ourselves out of the revenue before declaring it profit? What sort of expenses are acceptable? What if I decided to fly all over the place to promote the game? That could hurt the value to my investors rather than help it. How many years do you continue to get your percentage? If a game is making $100 a month and you have 0.1% share, do they have to mail you a check for ten cents every month?

On top of that, their valuation is really high. A total of 32,000 euros nets you 3.2% of the project. that means that the entire project is valued at 1 million euros. I'm all for sweat equity, but if I were an investor, I'd want to get a better deal than that.

Plus, I don't want euros because US banks are garbage and screw me over on the conversion. Despite happily funding the kickstarter, I'm not going to touch fundedbyme with a 10 foot pole.

I know that you probably think that it may be too expensive but it's important to keep to the Kickstarter pricing that you gave, otherwise people may feel like they're getting ripped off otherwise.

While I totally agree, I suspect I'll do something similar to Among the Sleep where I launch on Steam at 10% off. Steam launches are super important, so any sort of discount might pressure people to buy it, which will help our numbers, which will help us get into future promotions.

What I WON'T do is what Among the Sleep did where you can buy the game at a discount on Steam right now, and I'm still waiting for my key from backing. I suspect I'll give every backer the build out a week or two early like Broken Age, to make up for the fact that they could save $1.50. I feel like that'll probably be fair. I guess I could give people $1.50 if they really object....

So what we have here is not typical and probably also helped by the overall smaller (and thus more individualized) community.

Yeah, I wonder how it scales, and it has me thinking about what to do for a future project. I mean I could probably handle a 2x or 3x increase in forum traffic/comments (which would be a sizeable kickstarter, and probably all I could hope for), but if we were to get lucky and get more money, it might be hard for me to stay so personally involved.

That being said, I'd probably like to hire some sort of community manager (if I had a huge backer community), so we could stay involved and keep the backers in the loop without totally destroying my personal schedule. I think that could work out well, but I'm not sure we could really expect a breakout kickstarter success like that anyway, so I probably don't ever have to worry about it. hahaha

[RightClickSaveAs]

Kickstarter is a lot about trust, because at the end of the day we have nothing but the word that whatever project will ever see the light of day.
But you, matt, were always very active and interactive, both in the comment section of the Kickstarter itself, the updates and now the forum.
I do appreciate that a lot, but I must say this is - at least in my limited experience - not the norm. A lot of projects go with the updates and some, like Mighty No. 9, also try to actively involve the community, but - funnily enough - they are too big. I backed that and I'm glad I did, but I'm not at all involved in the community because it's so gargantuan that a single voice is completely drowned out.
So what we have here is not typical and probably also helped by the overall smaller (and thus more individualized) community.

Same for me with Double Fine's Broken Age, that was the first thing I backed and I was excited to get on their forums and follow the project, but once I registered and saw the forums exploding from day one with thousands of posts I just gave up. Thankfully their video documentaries are amazing, so I was still glad I backed.

How does everyone feel about backer exclusive rewards in the game itself? Darkest Dungeon offered a class that's usable only by the backers, and there was some complaining, if I remember correctly. I'm fine with this personally, if someone is willing to take the risk on a project and pony up some money early they should be rewarded, but I'll agree it does start to get into dangerous territory. Making too much content in the game itself backer only could start a bad precedent. That's the only example I know of so far though.

[matt]

Darkest Dungeon offered a class that's usable only by the backers, and there was some complaining, if I remember correctly. I'm fine with this personally, if someone is willing to take the risk on a project and pony up some money early they should be rewarded, but I'll agree it does start to get into dangerous territory.

In general, I'm not a fan. What if someone is passionate about the game and doesn't have a credit card? What if they were a super fan of the game, but just didn't hear about your project?

I hate the idea of not being able to get something because "it's too late". Perhaps this is just because of my OCD and collector's instinct, but I'd hate to miss out just because I wasn't aware or able to back something during a month long campaign.

I feel like this is kind of similar to games and/or their DLC going offline forever. I am kicking myself for not buying the DLC for Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 in time. Now I'll never be able to play as Jill or Shuma-Gorath.

I think if it is just a character skin or something, that's probably okay, but something that changes the gameplay experience seems like it is a bummer for everyone who didn't back. Personally, I want as many people as possible to see my hard work, so I'd hate to lock of content and make it inaccessible to a huge part of my audience...

[RightClickSaveAs]

Darkest Dungeon offered a class that's usable only by the backers, and there was some complaining, if I remember correctly. I'm fine with this personally, if someone is willing to take the risk on a project and pony up some money early they should be rewarded, but I'll agree it does start to get into dangerous territory.

In general, I'm not a fan. What if someone is passionate about the game and doesn't have a credit card? What if they were a super fan of the game, but just didn't hear about your project?

I hate the idea of not being able to get something because "it's too late". Perhaps this is just because of my OCD and collector's instinct, but I'd hate to miss out just because I wasn't aware or able to back something during a month long campaign.

You're right, cosmetic stuff is probably the best option for backer-exclusive ingame stuff. Thankfully it doesn't seem to be a big trend with Kickstarters at the moment.

I also really like that many projects are offering slacker backer packages. There are a few from the early days of Kickstarters that I was kinda bummed I didn't get in on.