84 - Representing a 3D World in 2D

Developer diaries about creating Neverending Nightmares.

What direction should the player move when he enters the children's bedrooms?

Left to right (the way it is now, which is incorrect for the 3D space)
5
63%
Right to left (the way it would actually be in 3D space)
3
38%
I'm confused... What are you talking about?!?!
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 8

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matt
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Re: 84 - Representing a 3D World in 2D

Post by matt »

Stefan8000 wrote:why is there no link to the nn-website on youtube? and why are there now infos in the headline or text below, that you are talking about nn? if i send buddies the link, or if people stumble over it, they have no clue, for what game it is. i think, you should change that.
Those are very good points. I will try and remember to start putting links to the Neverending Nightmares website on the youtube videos. The Neverending Nightmares website is meant as more of a product page, and I don't have much there other than basic info. I have links to the forum and the videos and everything on http://www.infinitapgames.com which I use for the blog and updating people about the game's progress.
Stefan8000 wrote:i voted for the real 3d, but it seems, i am nearly alone with it.
I was actually thinking that we'd have to change it, and I'm surprised people are as fond of it as the way it is. Personally, I was leaning towards changing it. Maybe I'll try switching up the doors and see how it feels.
Stefan8000 wrote:have you thought about doors in the front of the screen, so that it fits to the 3d world? i know, it is difficult to show invisible doors, but maybe you could use carpets on that spaces, where a door is and the player have to go down to enter the door.

This is more of an art issue. I don't think we want to show doors in the foreground because it conflicts with our art style that is kind of sort of like a real world camera. Having a door there is kind of gamey. Your idea with the carpet is a really good one, but I think it might be easy to miss, and I'm not sure what to do with respect to the player because they'd basically be walking past the camera, which would be challenging to do.

In general, emulating a 3D world in 2D is very tricky. There is no way you can really get it exact without an isometric viewpoint, and even with those, a lot of things are faked...
-Matt Gilgenbach
Lead Frightener at Infinitap Games
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JPrice
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Re: 84 - Representing a 3D World in 2D

Post by JPrice »

Ok here's that transcript! It's a bit trickier considering that it's an in-game diary but I tried to work around it hahaa :D

"Hello and welcome to another in game developer diary! And so this developer diary is going to be kind of interesting, well hopefully interesting because I’m going to talk about the things that no one really thinks about when designing a game and certainly things that we didn’t have planned out when we started.

Firstly let me go through this door,
Image

And then here you go right to left which seems reasonable.
Image

You continue to go right to left until you go out the last door which leads you back to a hallway.
Image

Now this is the same hallway as before, the question is say you want to progress further in this level, which way do you go? Do you go left or do you go right? So let me just use my little debug cheat here to get back.
Image

Ok so this is the door we entered so it’s the same hallway, if you want to go further you would continue to the right. The idea is things are arranged such that left to right is forward, in this section of the level anyway. Now the interesting thing is if you open the same door again, imagine if you were entering a door on the back wall and then came into this room.
Image

The actual way to go to progress further would be to the left. This was something that I completely didn’t understand, that you should actually be going to the left through these rooms for this to match the outside room. So to some extent people who go to the left after exiting the end door are actually going in the same direction but at least in my mind I didn’t think of this at all. To me it was like “Ok left to right is how we want the level to flow so we’ll arrange the rooms that way” but the problem is that we are creating a 2D representation of a 3D world. This can be quite challenging.

One of the games we looked at was ‘Resident Evil’ and that game has 2D renders of the background and static cameras, which can be frustrating as they have the tank driving controls for the character. However they were very fortunate in that they had two things going for them, one they had a map and two they could frame any camera angle they wanted. So we can move the camera a bit but it’s difficult to come up with new camera angles that are A) Not too jarring, like they’re not reversing the direction of everything but also continue with the flow we want. Because one of the things we want is that you don’t get confused when you go through a door, you know where to go and so for example we could have it so you go through this door
Image

And then this door the camera’s all rotated around so you come out on the other side
Image

Actually this is a feature I want to add at some point is the idea that we show the doors closing that you just came through, because I think it will help sort of connect the rooms and help suit your mind to fill in the idea that you’re in a 3D space with 2D representation.

We do our maps in a 2D top down view and then we realise some of the rooms and some of the directions we want we can’t frame with our camera or it would produce a weird thing, because basically you can only show the room from certain camera angles. Like for example because the door is on the back wall and this window is on the back wall this window basically can’t exist, it’s opening into a hallway. The solution for that of course would be to basically flip the camera in this room, so if we flipped this room the window would be on the opposite side of the mansion facing the outside. But then the problem would be that the camera would be flipped just for this room and you’d be travelling the opposite direction than the direction you’re travelling for the other rooms.

So it’s really a tough problem to solve and one that we weren’t fully equipped to solve, we didn’t really think it all the way through because we looked at ‘Lone Survivor’ and that game has doors in the foreground and we’re like “Oh well we’ll just arrange our rooms such that we don’t need that foreground door” which turned out to be really hard. I looked at ‘Maniac Mansion’ and so we have a similar sort of room for a screen, the perspective on the left and right walls kind of like the original ‘Maniac Mansion’ but I think everything is mostly left to right and they don’t do a lot of camera angles or trying to create much of a 3D space.

So yeah it’s a tough problem to solve and certainly one that I think would be worth thinking about if you’re trying to do a game like this. I mean certainly another solution is like the game ‘Home’. ‘Home’ basically is a 2D space, there are no doors on the back walls, there are no 3D aspects to it, you just move up and down stairs and left to right. Certainly that’s a good way to simplify things but I think for our game in which exploration is sort of a big and important aspect to it, at least in my mind, so that wouldn’t work very well.

Anyway the real question is I’d like to pose at the end of this is when you go through the door should you end up on the other side and go left to right or should you go right to left? Do we go with the way that would match the 3D world or do we go with the way that matches the direction that the player is used to going? I don’t really have the right answer so I’d really like to know what you guys think."
"Always look on the bright side of life"
Check me out on Steam if you like! - http://steamcommunity.com/id/JPrice321/
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miumiaou
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Re: 84 - Representing a 3D World in 2D

Post by miumiaou »

It's awesome thanks for your work
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Mung0
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Re: 84 - Representing a 3D World in 2D

Post by Mung0 »

I'm glad you mentioned this, I now remember going round in circles a lot when I first played the demo, and now I know that this is why.
I would personally prefer it to go the other way, i.e. going right-to-left in the back rooms being the same direction as left-to-right in the front rooms, but that being said, in nightmares we rarely get what we prefer >:)

I also think that having animation for the door you just entered a room from closing would make a lot of sense, especially in the 3-door room before the candle room, where it's not clear which door you came in, and even now when I've replayed it a lot I often go back to the hallway by mistake.
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Stefan8000
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Re: 84 - Representing a 3D World in 2D

Post by Stefan8000 »

@ jprice: great work.

@ matt: maybe you can add a steam-greenlight button on the nn-webside. if people know, that the game will hit steam, it will produce more interested people.

yes, i think, it is really tricky to present a 3d world in 2d. my question is, is it a good thing, if the game will go from left to right all the way? will this not getting boring? and now, that two of us have problem with the incorrect 3d, i am not sure, if there will be more, that this thing will confuse to much. maybe you should really try it the other way and show this to us. but i am really sad, i we will loose the window. it is difficult.
Hansson
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Re: 84 - Representing a 3D World in 2D

Post by Hansson »

I'd prefer the correct movement (3D-wise). Though both of the options are gonna confuse some players anyhow. Foreground doors would solve this dilemma the best, probably, but I take that they are absolutely out of question?
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matt
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Re: 84 - Representing a 3D World in 2D

Post by matt »

Jprice,

Thank you so much for putting together the transcript and the pictures! That is awesome!

All this discussion has given me a pretty good idea of what to do about this situation. I am going to try something a little different than the two choices I outlined. Some people pointed out that the issue is that there is a 180 degree camera turn, which is just plain disorienting. By changing what walls the doors are on, we can make it so the camera only rotates 90 degrees at a time.

It will still result in right to left movement when you exit the hallway, but you'll be leaving through a door on the "back" wall and entering through a door on the side wall. It should be easy to mock up because we don't actually have to change any art. We just have to rewire the doors. We'll give it a shot and put it in the next build and see what people think. It will be accurate to the 3D world (except we'll probably keep the bathroom window in there, and doesn't have camera flips.

While we haven't implemented yet, I think it seems pretty promising! :)

Thank you all so much for your help.
-Matt Gilgenbach
Lead Frightener at Infinitap Games
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