84 - Representing a 3D World in 2D

[matt]

In this video, I talk about the difficulties of creating a navigable 3D world represented with 2D art. I need your help making a decision, so after you watch the video, please take the poll! Thanks and happy new year!

[gagaplex]

This is an interesting issue, actually.
For a "realistic" game, I'd definitely go with "Right to left (the way it would actually be in 3D space)". But this is about nightmares and weird worlds and so on. So going with the other option (with a clear direction of "progress" versus a direction of "regress") is justifiable. Kind of like how in dreams you may keep going up or down stairs forever or similar.
You know, you could turn this direction-mishap into an actual feature.
Keep "Left to right (the way it is now, which is incorrect for the 3D space)" and maybe somehow increase the effect of drawing the player towards the right even more. Many games try to direct the player (especially in a 3D-environment) towards particular doors or footholds with lighting. Imagine that here: Perhaps with an additional, fluid "shadow-overlay", stronger on the left side of the screen, weaker on the right, but overall still sheer/see-through enough not to interfere with seeing things on the left...? Or some other, perhaps more subtle way to draw the player towards the right.
I. e., don't try to solve the problem, embrace it and emphasize it as a gameplay-component/component of the strangeness of the dream/lack of "real-world architecture" in these nightmares.
Just my idea of it.

[matt]

Thanks for your feedback! Last of Us did that really well with placing exit signs and putting extra lights where you are supposed to go. I'll have to give some more thought to if we can pull something similar off with our art style. My other worry with that is because exploration is a key gameplay mechanic in Neverending Nightmares, we don't want to make the correct path TOO obvious.

We are working on the basic map for the 3rd level right now, and it's a big struggle to create something that encourages exploration but also prevents the player from getting too lost. We have some interesting ideas, so it'll be interesting to see how that turns out.

[Zendath]

Figured I'd take the conversation from the Youtube comments to here.

This was a very interesting video and my own opinion of the matter when it comes to the different directions and whether or not it makes sense with, for example, the window in the bathroom is that it should remain the way it is. It reminds me a bit of all the weird theories people had about the Hotel Managers office in The Shining. Weird geometry/room layouts that don't always make sense adds to the weirdness and horror aspect I think. It adds another layer and makes you wonder if the Mansion is build in this way to confuse the senses or if it's a matter of the main character's deepening nightmare.

With the mentioned addition of having the doors close as you enter a room to keep people from getting confused is a good step on the way. Perhaps another would be to have the candles in the hallway gently sway in the opposite direction from where the player originally came into the hallway. So for example, entering a hallway from the left and going through a sequence of rooms and ending up back into the hallway, the candles would for a brief moment breeze and shift to the right, indicating the way to proceed and not double back on yourself.Or perhaps simply have the main character face to the right as if to say that's the way to go. Or left in both cases if reentering the hallway from the right side.

Though I guess that wouldn't really help with any big frustrations players might find themselves in if they keep going in circles, but hand holding should also be kept to a minimum when possible as confusion and mild frustrations add to the nature of the game and the exploration.

[miumiaou]

option 4: I havn't any opinion here, I mean if you want to be realistic yes it's better to do it right, but if you don't it's not bad because the character is in a nightmare and a nightmare isn't logic.

[sunsetbrew]

I am just going to say that I don't think this is a problem at all. Just as you felt it was important to have the main character struggle and feel helpless, there is no requirement that the game world follows the rules of real world. I would encourage you to use this "problem" to enhance the game play rather than to make it euclidean.

[RightClickSaveAs]

I think Left -> Right makes the most sense as a logical progression through the level. Playing the Alpha I've never really thought about it, it just seemed natural to continue moving in the "same" direction (Left -> Right as oriented by the screen). I think it would be disorienting to have the player enter a room and then have to reorient themselves to the "realistic" flow of the level, without doors in the foreground.

I think that as long as it's consistent, it will make sense. Unless of course you want people to question the reality of the situation, in which case that could be used to play around with the geometry of the place! Gagaplex made a great point in that you could build that right into the game to enforce the weird dream state of the world.

[Grabthehoopka]

I think that it should kept as-is. Honestly, I didn't even notice, and it could be hindsight bias, but I do remember being slightly disoriented in both of those rooms and now it makes perfect sense. If you hadn't mentioned it, I probably would have lived the rest of my life without knowing exactly why! But, I did notice the hallways wrapping around the same way, and I figured you did that on purpose. In EVERY let's play of the demo that I've ever seen, they always say they feel like they're going in circles around that point. So, bravo.

I think you should take so-called "geometry" and "things that are physically possible" with a grain of salt. It should be a relatively low priority when you're designing levels. Obviously the rooms should be somewhat congruent with one another, but you have a way around a technical limitation with a perfect justification in-universe, so why not use it?

On the subject of using left-to-right in the design of the game, I think that exploration is more important. It might work in that one level, I think, because ultimately you are drawing the player to the attic. Right from the start, you're presenting the boarded-up attic to the player, giving them a clear goal, and you set it up so that everything they do brings them closer to it. So if you want to create a feeling of being drawn to something, it'll work.

But while I'm not sure if you could call Neverending Nightmares a "survival horror" game, one of the most important things for me on the list of what makes a survival horror game is that, when playing, it must feel like the developer is not on your side. I think this does the most to add to an oppressive and isolated atmosphere. So, for that reason, I think by putting the emphasis more on the player figuring out where to go themselves, it'll make them feel more like an interloper in an unfamiliar location, but it'll also make the player feel more like they're figuring things out on their own, and not notice the guiding hand of the all-powerful game devs as much.

So. Anyways. I vote for keeping it as-is.

[JPrice]

I think I share the same sentiment as most people here on the subject.

During my first playthrough I didn't really find that I noticed it at all to be honest. I only really considered it now that you've bought it up! I think that from a gameplay stand point it makes more sense as the player is usually accustom to walking to the right, I mean I certainly think it works fine personally. I can see the dilemma here for you however as the other option is the more realistic approach. That said it does work in your favour as the core setting of the game takes place in a nightmare, which allows you more creative freedom. In turn having the way it is now could just be constrewed as being a part of the nightmare, twisting and distorting the pathways. Actually a decent idea for the game could be to use the twisting path navigation against the player. For example if the player is used to something being a complacent part of the game you could then use those expectations to slightly alter that complacent element to create a greater sense of fear and uncertainty. Something like being able to open almost every door could be changed in one section so that it doesn't open or it triggers something else.

But I'm getting off topic haha
Short answer I guess would be to keep it the way it is as it doesn't tamper with anything crucial in the game, in my opinion anyway

--Edit--
Oh yeah and I'll get that transcript written tomorrow if I can for those who want it!

[Stefan8000]

i will watch the video later, but i have some input for you.

why is there no link to the nn-website on youtube? and why are there now infos in the headline or text below, that you are talking about nn? if i send buddies the link, or if people stumble over it, they have no clue, for what game it is. i think, you should change that.

the other thing is, if i go to the nn-website, there is no directlink to the forum. a lot of people like reading forums, but if it is not an easy way to find it, they loose interest. and you should update your website too. tell more of the game. tell stories about the kickstarter process there (maybe the story about the wrong pledge).

with this both, you can make more interest to the game.

edit:
ok, i watched the video. for me, it is a problem, like it is in the video, because it is not logical. ok, it is a nightmare, but i still have a bad feeling about that. in my nightmares, i havent the problem, that the whole interior switch sides. so, i voted for the real 3d, but it seems, i am nearly alone with it.

have you thought about doors in the front of the screen, so that it fits to the 3d world? i know, it is difficult to show invisible doors, but maybe you could use carpets on that spaces, where a door is and the player have to go down to enter the door. with this solution, the left-right thing would still work. but i dont know, if it is understandable without a tutorial.

regards,
stefan from germany