Infinitap Games

Most people would agree that there are rewards from playing video games - emotions, entertainment, and the feeling of accomplishment. These are intrinsic rewards based on the game design itself. There are also ways to give extrinsic rewards through achievements and picking up collectables. While intrinsic rewards are better, are extrinsic rewards bad?



You can read Chris Hecker's thoughts that I referenced here.

Speaking of achievements specifically, I've never minded them being in games. If it's something I'm interested in I'll give them a shot, and if not, I just ignore them. I think the best achievements though are the ones that are involved with exploring the game's world, and can encourage people to see everything in the game they might not normally catch on a normal playthrough.

As far as collectibles go, these can sometimes be distracting. It really depends on the game, but for instance, Neverending Nightmares having collectible items would have felt weird and broken up the flow of the game a lot.

Speaking of Deadly Premonition though, which I just finished over the weekend, having collectible trading cards seemed to fit really well into that weird world Even though I didn't get nearly all of them I liked that they were an option, and gave some extra incentive to explore Greenvale

Another game that used collectibles well, and which I'm obsessed with now that I finally played it, is Spec Ops: The Line. There aren't a lot of them, and the game is really very linear, but the intel reports you can find actually add a lot to the experience. I've found all but one. These and the achievements are really well tied into the game, and they've given me another reason to play through the game again and piece together the story while trying to do things differently and seeing what the results are. One thing I really liked about the achievements was, without going into spoiling territory, the fact that the game can end a few different ways, and there are achievements for each of them.

For the next game, I'm thinking of having a lot more text/items to explain the world would make exploration more interesting. Are these themselves motivation enough to explore? Do you think I should have something in the main menu that displays a list of the items and ??? if you haven't found them to further motivate people to look?

The problem I'm trying to address is basically the complaints about dead ends and the motivation to explore. Some people felt like the rooms with nothing in it were time wasters. I don't necessarily agree, but I'm thinking of ways to address that. I'm wondering if giving the added incentive to find them all via an achievement or just the satisfaction of filling out the item list in the main menu would be better.

To some extent, I don't like it because I don't want people constantly checking the pause menu to see if they found everything, but it might be nice to have the story bits organized in case you want to look them over after you beat the game.

Decisions, decisions!

matt wrote:For the next game, I'm thinking of having a lot more text/items to explain the world would make exploration more interesting. Are these themselves motivation enough to explore? Do you think I should have something in the main menu that displays a list of the items and ??? if you haven't found them to further motivate people to look?

Personally, the text and items by themselves would be enough to get me to explore everything, as long as they were well tied in to the world and story. I try to check everything out in a game I like. I don't know if most people spend the same amount of time as I do though, I'm typically slower than a lot of people playing through a game.

What about some kind of compromise, where you have the character also carry a journal or some type of scrapbook which records all these things, and has blank spaces for the stuff that hasn't been found yet? Depending on the theme, it could be a case file, a sketchbook, or some kind of Necronomicon-like book bound in human skin (ok maybe not that last one (unless it really fit the theme and character!))

The problem with an in game notebook, UI, menus, etc is that they interrupt the horror and take you out of the moment. Even with the most integrated notebook thingy, it could still be a way to escape the tension or horror of the actual game. Ideally I'd like to not even show the list in game, but that might be a little mean for people who are really collecting. That's why I'm not sold on the whole idea of even showing the notes again through the menu...

I'm glad you are even considering this as an option.

I personally like intrinsic more than extrinsic, but I do see where both have their merits. In terms of awards/trophies/achievements popping up that HEY you found a rock! "Rock Collector!" I do find it kills immersion and reminds you that you are sitting at a machine playing a game and not really "there". I rarely get 100% on games and in most cases, could care less how much of a completionist I am. The only game I felt bad missing a few things was "Never Alone" because the collectibles in the game unlocked documentary videos and the fact I missed 2 really bothered me as I loved seeing said videos.

One game that gives you a bit of BOTH and doesn't necessarily destroy immersion was Fallout New Vegas, where exploration allowed for a lot of environmental story telling, chances to discover people/quests/items/areas but also as you proceeded and got some of those achievements for say, 10 headshots, crafting 10 items, killing 10 bugs, etc etc, for every 5 you got a chunk of EXP to help you level the character, which I found a nice reward (especially if you are struggling to survive). Since the UI of the game was an extension of the PipBoy, the alerts and notifications never bothered me while I played. If I got a DING achievement on a console where it's the GAME SYSTEM telling me "good job" then I'd be annoyed. I guess thats the ultimate "immersion killer" for me- having the operating system of the hardware i am on (steam, Sony's software, xbox's UI) chime in really burns it.

So I guess extrinsic rewards that work within the game and it's framework universe and serves some function beyond "collecting it all" is ok with me. But I still am more intrinsic focused, I want to feel rewarded in a more subtle, organic way that is not so explicit and "here's a badge!" Environmental story telling, for me, is AWESOME and I play pretty slow, likely a lot like RightClick mentioned. So I love to explore, savor, and peer at every detail possible. IF a game has that in mind, and leaves breadcrumbs around for those people to reward them and expand on the story/lore/history then GREAT(especially if said items make sense in the world and don't feel thrown in/tacked on).

In terms of a list people can view to see if they found EVERYTHING... I can see the dilemma and agree it can be distracting. One possible solution is to have a bit of text or stats on the loading screen between nightmares. Like if you have a "chapter title" screen to let the player know they're moving to the next bit of story, also include stats on number of times died, time to advance, secrets found, enemies avoided, etc etc. In the main menu settings for gameplay you can add a checkbox to display or not during those loading screens so those that aren't interested in seeing it can leave it off. For those that are curious, or need to know, it is there (during a natural cut in action that is by its own existence, slightly immersion breaking) and if folk don't care it can be left off and just do a cumulative stats at the end of the game after all credits roll.

or if not all the stats, just a single stat. It would be kind of ominous to have a creepy font number fade in and out during the chapter/title screen loading showing the total number of secrets not yet discovered but with no other indication there (so it is cryptic and folk don't know why it's counting down, what it initially means). Eventually people will figure it out and word will spread, but only really to those that really want to know. People won't know if it's hours until they die, mistakes they made so far, or some other gameplay element they're not sure about. hehehe. In this case I like the unawares feeling it can give and how it COULD be useful to completionists.

in regards to the significance/meaning of osme of these found objects/logs/notes/whatever and the game ending, and if gamers will GET the significance of the item first playthrough, or only in the second after seeing the end, I think it would work in layers.

For example:

First playthrough you are exploring an old shed and inside it you see a slightly out of place, well taken care of yoke for an ox on the wall. It looks like the leather is well cared for, there is no rust on the metal bindings, and it seems used but not deteriorating like much of the rusted dirty equipment in there. The play sees this and may come to a few conclusions about the type of farm this land used to be, that the farmer had cattle or some type of livestock to help handle the work, and that someone must have been there recently to clean or uncover the yoke.



Second Playthrough with the revelation of the family's secrets, you discover that the yoke was actually used to punish the farmers' family (kids, teens and wives), where they had to pull it and plow the soil for hours in the hot sun, and the farmer obsessively took care of these implements because they allowed him to do "God's work" and punish the wickedness out of his family. Along the way, through the game, any other "well kept" items you discover around that area also would gleam that added creepy realisation, and so second playthrough there is a whole different, possibly more sinister vibe to these discoveries.

The idea of "layers" can afford a lot of meaning and benefit to discovered items. A note talking about a man's sprouting love for a beautiful girl can later be read understanding he was a murdering rapist and was actually writing it while stalking someone's child. What was at first a lofty, almost romantic note that makes you sympathize with a character becomes completely twisted and horrible when re-read later.

I would love to see stuff like this implemented, but considering the potentially limiting budget/time/capabilities it wouldn't work if you, say, did lots of notes, journal entries, voice recordings and the like. Those are the typical staples of games nowadays and kind of washed out in my eyes. Using a FEW isn't bad, using it as a game long crutch almost exclusively though, would be painful and unimaginative.



Simple found images can sprout the imagination (or paranoia) of players and keep them engaged as they try to put together the clues. How abstract or subtle they are is up to you, how explicit the meaning is also up to you. is it obvious what it means, or will people only gleam the REAL truth after finishing the game?

One possible solution is to have a bit of text or stats on the loading screen between nightmares.

What loading screens? We worked very hard to completely remove loading screens because they destroy immersion.

I felt like we kept the closer looks and things you find to be abstract in Neverending Nightmares to the point that (and I could be misremembering) you felt like they didn't reveal anything about the story. Even if you didn't have the complaint there are some people who felt like there wasn't enough story nuggets to leave around. While that was counter to the design goals of Neverending Nightmares, the next game is more story focused. I agree that common things like voice recorders are totally overused. We will probably have some notes, maybe some newspaper articles, but I am trying to tell the story through objects in the world that tell something about the story without saying it directly. That's my goal anyway!

As you've said, we'll have a limited budget, so I'm sure we won't have the most amazing environmental storytelling ever, but we'll do what we can. Joe tried really hard to get as much environmental story telling as he could in Neverending Nightmares, but I imagine a lot of it was really subtle.

matt wrote:The problem with an in game notebook, UI, menus, etc is that they interrupt the horror and take you out of the moment. Even with the most integrated notebook thingy, it could still be a way to escape the tension or horror of the actual game. Ideally I'd like to not even show the list in game, but that might be a little mean for people who are really collecting. That's why I'm not sold on the whole idea of even showing the notes again through the menu...

Definitely a challenging problem. What if, to steal part of another poster's idea (sorry I couldn't find it to credit you) but as you find things, they would be etched/tattooed somewhere on the player's body, and you could see them without bringing up a menu or anything?

That is definitely a cool idea, but the things you find will most likely be just contributing to the world rather than gameplay ideas, so it isn't super necessary.

Etching it on the body doesn't work well for text since it has to be localized. If we were doing a map that might work, but I want to get away without it. haha If we did need maps, we'd do it the Penumbra/Vanishing of Ethan Carter way where there are actual maps in game that you can take a look at. I think that is a really elegant solution - although that section of Vanishing of Ethan Carter kinda sucked.

haha or do the evil thing. sort of following the rules of a dream, where tyring to read and then re-read anything printed end sup in changes or impossible to repeat text, you could have the map on a wall as a interact-able object but each time you view the map it changes/fades/flips upside down or backwards or some other weird anomaly so it's only really useful the first time you use it...

I love dream logic.