Infinitap Games

In this video, I talk about how my work ethic isn't as good at the moment as it used to be.

I think with the next Kickstarter you should really emphasize the fact that Neverending Nightmares was released when you said it would be. Seriously, yours is the only project I've seen that's done that ever. There may be some out there but definitely none of the others I backed!

RightClickSaveAs wrote:I think with the next Kickstarter you should really emphasize the fact that Neverending Nightmares was released when you said it would be. Seriously, yours is the only project I've seen that's done that ever. There may be some out there but definitely none of the others I backed!

haha yeah i have to agree. I have KS's backed that are getting on 2-3 years now overdue i think... and still aren't looking at a release til MAYBE mid 2015 is not later in the year. on the upside they look to be great games with some stellar work, but sloooowww.....

work ethic is a tough thing, especially when it is self regulated. i mean do you have a boss? (and no the wife doesn't count! lol) . If you are yer own boss then forcing good work habits on yourself and keeping morale going is really tough. I suggest naps. 15-20 minute power naps so you refresh the mind and get a much needed moment away from doing the stuff you don't like at the desk. just be disciplined and don't overdo it. hehe I find if I do that I usually get a moment to rest my body (which often tenses up while banging away at work for hours) but my mind never really entirely stops thinking about work.. yet by stepping away somehow my perspective clears and often something I have struggled on becomes "well shit why didn't I just do THAT instead? duh".

You COULD talk about the emotional side of being between games in the dev vids. without actually saying much of anything about it, it is still possible to talk about how it makes you feel, your fears, desires, ambitions and what some of the small achievements do for overall morale (yours and your co workers). It may seem somewhat vague now but if the discussion focus is not on content and gameplay, but rather on you and your perspective, it'd still be interesting and somewhat therapeutic.

I have insomnia, so it is literally impossible for me to nap. Breaks are probably good, and I don't take a lot of those - although sometimes I get distracted and read too much of my RSS feeds. Sometimes there are such interesting articles!

I did talk about the emotional side before I announced Neverending Nightmares, and I think it worked pretty well. Did anyone watch those videos? Soooo long ago. Did you like them?

Here are a some of the more emotional ones. I'm doing a bit better now, so I don't know if it'd be quite AS emotional, but it might be interesting to talk more along those lines.

I hadn't seen those early videos unfortunately, around that time i had backed a number of projects so it was hard to check on every update I was getting. I also, admittedly, had an enormous amount of faith and confidence in you and so wanted to shy away from possible spoilers until the game was really under way and almost done.

it's interesting to see just how emotional and raw you were in that first (of this post) video as you fretted over your first dev diary that wasn't even posted yet, about your own personal struggles, and of the fight with choosing to live and dealing with life vs life on medication. I can see why you have a dedicated and fiercely loyal pack of followers on here and elsewhere, you have bared a lot to them and those that empathize or sympathize are going to feel very close to you, protective even, and so do everything they can to both help protect and help bolster you when necessary. That's good, it'd be sad if you didn't have that after such a series of videos and blogs.

Sadly those same people are also biased (in your favor) and so may not make the best wall to bounce ideas and game aspects off because they won't be as critical and blunt about what does stick. Me? I hadn't seen those vids so when I critically look at your game it is without any influence about your own mental struggles or your history as a human, as a developer or as a creative artist. I look at the final design as a creation, both one that I try to interpret, and also how I think others will interpret(critically or otherwise). My harsh statements must have felt pretty cruel to your most loyal fans, I am guessing. And at the same time, I wonder if the doubt, criticism and possibly cruel things I stated sounded an aweful lot liker your second internal dialogue.

Most of the GREAT true artists I know have that second cpu going full bore. Pinned at 100% usage and burning hot. Some have it doing so with sheer creative endeavors, some have it criticising and deconstructing their own work (or that of others). I can say I have that too, but I have learned to stay it's hand at picking away at my shell and destroying every little thing that I do. It was tough back in college, and really spoiled my love of art for it. I don't think you should ever try to stay that voices's hand.. never silence it. More, if anything, find a common ground so it is there, but you are working with it, not against it (or in spite of it). It is a large part of who you are, and your mention in the video that you wouldn't be the same person had it not been there. I agree.

All that said, I am sad that the emotion, distress, angst, anxiety, depression, criticism and unease you are displaying in these handful of video's didn't end up manifesting strongly in the game. Honestly I am surprised you didn't have a 'running voice' in the game, much like the whispers we hear while playing, but instead of what she says, have a lot of the critical/self destructive/angry/depressed/confused ideas always echoing in our ears much like you do. Think of it, if the game had that second cpu always churning and talking to the player, trying to coax them to fail, to give up, to hate themselves, to hurt themselves... how much more accurate and mind-blowing would the game be?

Sadly it might be too visceral an experience and potentially REALLY twist some gamers minds. then the game would get banned and become infamous for having suggestive and effective psychologically influential properties. honestly i'd be happier to see THAT created because it would go from a typical indie game release to something newsworthy and potentially historic within gaming and the media in general. I bet if you had to put a warning on the game about it, even more folk would want to try it and see if they were "mentally strong" enough to survive the neverending nightmares to the end.

Seeing these videos tells me you started with some great intentions, but I think too many compromises had to be made to get the game made and so what we got was not NEARLY as brutal, as visceral, or as accurate as you initially intended.

Towards the end of these you begin to ask about retro grade and if the four years you worked on it was worth it. was the game (finished) what you wanted it to be and were you proud of it? What about NeN? I have seen you say with passion the final game is something you are proud of and you're very happy with the way it came out. At the same time, in many spots across videos and posts on here I have seem dozens of times you have admitted choices, designs, ideas and final implemented concepts were not as successful or as well recieved as you would have hoped. So a few things to consider:

Do you think your work ethic stayed true through all of the game development? Did your ethic carry over to other team members, or is it just you steadfast working all the time?

Do you think said ethic helped or hurt the final game design?

Do you think time/money/team size/audience had a major impact on design and game choices?

Did you ultimately omit ideas that would have been too visceral or hit too close to home for you? Will you do so with the NeN sequal?

I actually posted those before I did the kickstarter, so you didn't really miss it.

I don't think your comments are anything like my internal dialog - and at least for me, it isn't helpful in the least. It is just a waste. My internal dialog is usually just things like "I'm a total failure", "this will never work", "you are fucking everything up", "hurt yourself", "kill yourself" and with graphic images to accompany them. It isn't constructive or remotely useful.

I think you are a little hard on the other forum goers. Granted, they have been a bit hard on you, but isn't it possible that they just really like the game? I think it is difficult to really separate biases from opinions, so I'm not sure it is worth debating who is totally objective. I'm not sure anyone can really be objective.

All that said, I am sad that the emotion, distress, angst, anxiety, depression, criticism and unease you are displaying in these handful of video's didn't end up manifesting strongly in the game.

I worked very hard to put it there and many have picked it up from playing the game. I recognized that not everyone would get it, and not everyone did. It sounds like you didn't. I don't mean that as a criticism. It's probably a failing on my part, but I don't know if there is any work of art that everyone can appreciate - maybe just "The Beatles" and "Starry Night".

Think of it, if the game had that second cpu always churning and talking to the player, trying to coax them to fail, to give up, to hate themselves, to hurt themselves... how much more accurate and mind-blowing would the game be?

While that is a really interesting idea (and not something I thought of), the words themselves don't have power. Many of them are really repetitive and uninteresting. For example, before I descended into thoughts of self-mutilation and suicide, they second track was just constantly calling myself a "pig-fucker". I think people would just get annoyed if there was a voice repeating that over and over and over. The words themselves are kind of silly, but when the second track is thinking it - I FEEL like total shit - the lowest of the low. It is the feeling that accompanies the word, and I'm not sure how to convey that with just words. Instead, I focused on creating the feelings of fear and anxiety like the world is closing in on you through the art and sound design.

Honestly I feel like I succeeded in what I set out to do and didn't water it down. If anything, I feel like my commitment to creating a game that evokes the feelings I meant to made the game less enjoyable to many people. I think you and I may have fundamentally different ideas for what Neverending Nighmares was supposed to be... :-/

Anyway, to answer your questions:

Do you think your work ethic stayed true through all of the game development? Did your ethic carry over to other team members, or is it just you steadfast working all the time?

Yeah, I had a strong work ethic, and the team was hard working and dedicated.

Do you think said ethic helped or hurt the final game design?

Helped. If I hadn't worked hard on the game, it would have been much worse.

Do you think time/money/team size/audience had a major impact on design and game choices?

Time, money, and team size definitely did. I think that has an big affect on every project. No game developer (except maybe Blizzard and Valve) has infinite time and resources, so everyone needs to design around their constraints. Interestingly, Alexander Bruce (of Antichamber fame) thinks that without constraints, games would suck. Neverending Nightmares started with ideas for big budget triple A games. I deconstructed everything to the bare minimum I wanted to do, and figured out how to make it work for the team I had. I think it made the game much better, so I'm inclined to agree.

Did you ultimately omit ideas that would have been too visceral or hit too close to home for you? Will you do so with the NeN sequal?

No I tried to find the things that hit closest to home and put them in the game. I will continue to pour myself into future games although they might not be as personal. It all depends on what I'm trying to do with the design.

actually at this point blizzard is part of EA and didn't they finally shut down their next MMO project that they'd worked on for like 6 years and poured millions into? Can't say for sure but it sounds like that idea ran out of time AND money.

I don't think your comments are anything like my internal dialog - and at least for me, it isn't helpful in the least. It is just a waste. My internal dialog is usually just things like "I'm a total failure", "this will never work", "you are fucking everything up", "hurt yourself", "kill yourself" and with graphic images to accompany them. It isn't constructive or remotely useful.

wait.. you don't think your inner dialogue is helpful.. or you think all of my comments are not helpful? lol.. i dunno if i should give you a hug or sock you in the mouth

just kidding. I usually do both anyhow *teehee*

Part of me is disappointed that my instinct was wrong and you really did put every bit of what you wanted into the game with no compromises (in terms of tonal content) but at the same time I'm happy ot hear you didn't cut your vision short for the game. You knew what you needed to imbue it with and you did, no cutting room floor travesties. Thats NOT an easy task. even if I think the game should have pushed things, the fact you hit the mark exactly where YOU wanted it is a heck of an accomplishment. Kudos on you and your team for that.

I saw the screams video. I still think for a fair chunk of it your direction was more succinct and useful. I also am now of the mind YOU should have done a bit of scream therapy for the male voice work in at least 1 session (even if you guys couldn't use it.. damn therapeutic and I think hearing you screaming would be visceral. You said you voices Thomas, so did you try a few major pants ripping screams? )

While that is a really interesting idea (and not something I thought of), the words themselves don't have power.

You are being a bit too literal in what I was saying. I don't mean having everything spoken in your head plopped in the game verbatim so much as the theme/vibe of what they say/do added to the game. I realize what is in your head is going to be VERY specific and personal and not necessarily evocative to other people. But finding emotional equivalents that are relative to say, thomas and the nightmare itself, or more universal "things to have pop up that would slowly grind anyone down while they play the game" or even stuff relevant to that particular room/nightmare/moment. I guess it is something you need to thoroughly think and plan out and tinker with, so just casually discussing it in very vague terms doesn't really do it so much justice.

Also, you look nothing like Ned Beatty.

Hard on the forum goers? i dunno, stating they are very protective and loyal and passionate about you as a developer and a person isn't really "hard". I guess saying it does add a degree of Bias is possibly hard/rough to hear, but I don't know of any population of people that fit those criteria that wouldn't claim to be a little biased. And if you deny they were loyal, passionate and protective, that's crueler to state than me stating they are. It implies they aren't, but they love the game and that's it. which strangely sounds fairly cold and crummy.

Just accept it. your fans love and adore you and they want to keep you all for themselves. Next kickstarter, I vote for a tier where for a larger donation, you'll send out signed photo's of you and the team! Or locks of hair. or old clothes you don't wear anymore.

"For $1000 donation you will get everything in the previous tiers, PLUS an authentic replica torn t shirt just like we have in the game, actually worn during development and still rank with the smell of Nightmare induced sweat! Priceless!"

You guys def need more physical reward tiers with replica props. If you had replica china dolls that looked like some of the more iconic ones from the game I am betting they'd be gone instantly. Heck even 3d printer mini-fig's.

Maybe that's an idea for a video, or a thread. favorite physical rewards or "feelies" from a kickstarter or boxed collector's edition, and what your fans might have wanted to see from NeN or a future NeN game? Do you ever get CE's? Any you particularly are proud of?

Blizzard is part of Activision Blizzard and is so successful that Activision appended it to their company name. Blizzard is legendary for cancelling projects that aren't up to snuff - Starcraft: Ghost, Warcraft Adventures, and more.

Sometimes an idea just isn't good or the business landscape changes. Subscription based MMOs are on their way out. Blizzard creating a new entry might only steal users from their existing WoW subscriber base. If you are rolling in money, you can afford to cancel a game to not release a stinker. I think too often game developers aren't in that situation, so they have to release a stinker and hope it'll sell. With Infinitap, we can't afford to swing and miss, which is scary.

you don't think your inner dialogue is helpful.

I don't think my internal dialog is helpful. I was saying it was DIFFERENT than your feedback.

Kudos on you and your team for that

Thanks!

I also am now of the mind YOU should have done a bit of scream therapy for the male voice work in at least 1 session

I am TERRIBLE at screaming. We are fortunate I didn't have to.

(even if you guys couldn't use it.. damn therapeutic and I think hearing you screaming would be visceral. You said you voices Thomas, so did you try a few major pants ripping screams? )

I voiced Thomas in the beta builds, but I was replaced by Josh Grelle of Attack on Titan (as well as a bunch of other anime) fame. We have a bunch of VO videos of that. I haven't uploaded anything from his session yet, but I will - when I get a chance.

I wasn't objecting to the fact that the forum posters are loyal, passionate, and protective. But you compared the forum goers to yourself in a way that I think wasn't really fair. I've gotten excellent feedback from them over the course of development that has really made the game better. They aren't as blunt as you are, but I don't think that means that they are biased or can't be critical. If I didn't have their feedback, the game would have been WAY worse. At least the inmates and the tormented Gabby would have been impossible. haha

Doing kickstarter physical rewards is HARD and expensive. Our rewards were pretty "simple" and I thought they'd be relatively cheap, but they turned out to be WAAAAAYYY more work than I expected and more expensive too. Joe 3D printed the Retro/Grade ship, and it was REALLY pricey for anything of reasonable size. I wanted to keep the cost of rewards to 10% of the kickstarter money, and I think we'll go over it - especially considering the effort we had to put into the art book... :-/ That being said, I wanted to go the extra mile to make the awesome. I spent twice as much on t-shirts as I planned, and I opted for hardcover for the books because I wanted to make them really cool. (They are so much cooler hardcover!)

Back before I was indie, I got a lot of collector's editions. Now I try to cut corners on my game collection. The best one I have is Bioshock with the Big Daddy figure. It is awesome!

Nice. did you open the case and put the figure out for show or is it all closed and stored safely?

and yes, sorry i mixed up the massive company that grabbed up blizzard.

I bet you scream just as great as the best of em. you might not scream like a young child, but well.. not many folk do.

So it sounds like for your next project.. no physical rewards eh? or if they're there.. going to be mad pricey? that's a shame. guess only the top 10% of american can afford your goodies.. lol. I had no idea you'd cater to such an audience and leave the rest of us working class stiffs in the dirt.

I opened it up. With Collector's Editions, you usually have to open them to get at the game.

I think some of the rewards might be priced higher like the custom paintings and working people into the game. Those were a lot of work and probably not a good deal on our end. We'll see where we end up with shipping, but I probably wouldn't change the price points of the $100 stuff or the art book. Maybe I'd just charge more for international shipping (which I think may kill us) and budget more of the total price for rewards. We have to figure out a lot of other things about the game before we can worry about the reward tiers.