Alpha 0.2 discussion! [SPOILERS]

[matt]

both change the layout around every time and have it grow more destroyed as well.

Things won't necessarily get more destroyed over time. We have all sorts of crazy things planned.

It may be that every room with a bed is a respawn room. I'm not quite sure of the layout. Either way, I don't think I want to draw attention to them.

I don't think the closets confusing you is necessarily a bad thing. I want the game to be somewhat confusing, so you don't know what to expect.

[RightClickSaveAs]

Man, I just can't get the monster grabby bug to happen again. I've managed to get the same conditions several times now (monster turns around, exit wardrobe, monster starts sniffing, then grabs me) but either the timing has to be extremely specific or something else was causing it. I know I was hammering the spacebar when the bug happened, but I've tried doing that every time so far and it doesn't seem to make a difference, so far the animation has played out the way it's supposed to: http://youtu.be/XdT8mR1-gI0

I do notice the player will sometimes sort of warp in position from the left side of the cabinet to the right side (where the monster is in place to grab him) but not always. The only difference I can think of is I've been recording without audio, and the time the bug happened I was recording audio, but that doesn't make much sense. Very weird! The good thing is that probably means it's not an issue that needs to be fixed then, so less work for you guys

[matt]

I hate not fixing bugs, but at least it is an extremely rare one, so hopefully it won't happen to others.

Right now, the player pops into position for the squeezing animation. I've been meaning to interpolate the position when the grab animation starts, but I haven't gotten around to it... I think that will make it look weird. In general though, it's tough to get the animations looking right in all placements.

Anyway, thank you for looking into the issue!

[Harry Sunderland]

I don't know if I've said this yet, but it made me really happy to see Matt reference The Incredibles 2 in the graveyeard with the "Matt Gilgenbot" grave.

Matt, are you going to extend the graveyard sequence to fit in all the KS backers? Or is it a surprise where the rest will be?

What I'm getting at is...I can't wait to see my name morbidly written on a digital tombstone.

[matt]

Hahah, one of the backers chose that as his name for the gravestone. I was against it, but Joe went ahead and did it. :-/ I'm glad you enjoy it. We put it in the shade, so it is less noticeable. Maybe I should make it even less noticeable. hahah

There will be multiple graveyards in different nightmares but with different names.

[Harry Sunderland]

I can see why you'd be against that, honestly I was surprised that you would stick such whimsy in the middle of your dramatic revelation scene about Gabby, but now that I know it wasn't you it makes much more sense.

Regardless, I bet Joe Sixpack playing the game won't even make the connection that it's a play on your name, and he certainly hasn't played Incredibles 2 (and if he has, may God have mercy on his soul).

[matt]

That's true that it probably only means something to very very few people. I'll probably move it to a less important graveyard. I have some other graveyard requests that say things that aren't really names, so I need to talk to some backers...

One of my best friends and the biggest supporter (who backed the project twice and came up with Matt Gilgenbot) really wants Hello Kitty on the gravestone because that's what he calls his cat. I keep telling him that I don't want to get sued, so hopefully he'll bend and put something more reasonable....

My partner at 24 Caret Games backed the project solely to get a tombstone that says My Savings to memorialize what he lost on the development of Retro/Grade. (He has an interesting sense of humor...) That totally doesn't fit, but he's inflexible about this. :-/ We compromised that at least it can be M. Y. Savings, and hopefully I can shove it towards the back.

I guess that's the only downside with kickstarter rewards, but hopefully we won't end up with anything that stands out as much as Penny Arcade cartoon in Republique.

[Grabthehoopka]

I downloaded a screen capture software, set up my crappy digital camera, played through it, recorded the whole thing...and it didn't work. Despite setting the capture software to record the entire screen, it essentially recorded a still image of the main menu the entire time. And my crappy digital camera apparently has an auto shut-off after around 30 minutes, so it stopped about 6 minutes short. And it didn't record any sound other than my voice. And since I tried to play it as candidly as possible and didn't give a running commentary, for the most part it's dead silent. In other words, it was a disaster from start to finish.

In my effort to play it as blindly as possible, I didn't do as many tests as were necessary, and it didn't work out. So for that, I'm sorry. I still have the footage from my camera of course, but it's mostly just me sighing, cringing, and occasionally starting at a jump scare with head phones on. I could try to piece together a timeline with time codes on it for what I'm reacting to, but. That's kind of lame.

So. Anyway.

This is my official after-action report. I've also refrained from reading anyone else's thoughts and reactions to keep my thoughts unfiltered and give you my gut reaction.

Overall, awesome. I was drinking coffee while playing it, which is probably not the best idea I've ever had. I jumped at all your jumpy scares and I creeped at all your creepy ones. I liked the run (I've never played a build with it, so good job on that) and I cowered in the face of your enemy(s) and even got killed by one once!

First, the good:

• I really liked the shadowy figure non-jump scare at the beginning.
• I really liked the music for the first stage. Well, all of them, really, but I'll mention that I liked the third stage music in a bit. It reminded me of Silent Hill 2, establishing a really somber atmosphere and then using that to build up to the scary. The atmosphere didn't ooze or suffocate, it wept. Stop me if I'm sounding pretentious.
• I don't know if you updated the panting noises for the run or not, since I've only ever seen it from the dev diary videos, but they sounded really good. If they're just placeholder sounds like you say and you plan on putting even better sounds in later, that's fantastic.
• I really liked the tableware breaking jump scare.
• I don't know if it was intended or not, but I found the family photo at the beginning hilarious. I don't think I've seen a more dreadfully serious expression on anything else in my life. I wouldn't say it was a mood killer though.
• The forest area was incredibly creepy. I was wondering whether or not adding more ambient noise would make it even creepier, but I'm sure you've already experimented with that, and it's fine the way it is.
• The graveyard will forever be tarnished by your steadfast crusade against spoilers. Remember to put those spoiler tags in before the game launches.
• It occurred to me while I was breezing through stage 2 that you could have expected all the testers to breeze through it and snuck in an extra jump scare without mentioning it, just to fuck with all of us. Thank you for not doing that.
• Nothing prepared me for how unsettling the third stage was. I mean, holy fuck.
• I really liked the music for the third stage. It sounded like an...out-of-tune music box? Is it even physically possible to detune a music box? Like...bending the little metal thingies or something? It was creepy as hell, and the melody seemed to fade in and out...I don't know if I imagined that or not, but my god.
• I nearly bumped into the first enemy you encounter, and it nearly gave me a goddamn heart attack.
• The enemy has a sniffing animation. I'm not gonna be so bold as to take credit for the idea, but I distinctly recall suggesting something along those lines a while back on the forums and Matt was all "eh, okay.", so it made me happy.
• Your creepy dolls are the creepiest creepy dolls I have ever seen. Porcelain dolls are one of those tightrope walks over cliche territory; those kinds of scary things that, like, in economic terms, have gone through inflation (of terror!!!) because of how easy it is to just stick one in there and creep people out without giving it any second thought. But I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone take the artistic direction you've taken yours, and not nearly so well. Hats off to the art department.
• The "chase" sequence, for lack of a better word, also nearly gave me a goddamn heart attack.
• The way the third stage is laid out is very surreal, and I think it did wonders to add to the unsettling atmosphere. I don't think I saw a single window, and it just kept going down, and down, and down. Fuck.
• Basically, what I'm trying to say is it's scary. Good job.

Next, the not-so-good. Don't worry, I'll try to keep it constructive. Keep in mind that I don't know dick about making video games, so take all suggestions with a grain of salt.

• The portraits on the wall of what I'm assuming are backers have a jarringly different art style compared to everything else, and they seem really out of place. It was one of those inconsistencies that really took me out of the moment, especially on the third stage, when the atmosphere is laid on so thick. Obviously you can't take them out, and I know that the art department has their work cut out for them already, so I hate squeezing them for more content, but something has to be done about it. Maybe some more cross-hatchy lines and mustaches or something.
• I didn't care too much for the bird running into the window jump scare. I mean, I jumped, and it was creepy, but I felt like it was a little too much for the beginning. It seemed like the beginning was supposed to have a somber and foreboding atmosphere, while still being rather mundane and not "frightening", per se, and putting that one extra event between the shadow thing and the falling bowl made it a little too fast-paced, in my opinion. Maybe it would do better in stage 2 in the bathroom window between the adjoining children's rooms? Of course, I'm hesitant to mention anything to do with pacing, because I'm sure you've put 100 times more thought into it than I have, and you've probably tested and played with the timing on everything. If you had a problem with how fast the rocking horse moved, you would probably change the timing of a jump scare if it didn't feel right to you.
• The names on the gravestones had the same problem that the portraits had, but I assumed that most of them were placeholders.
• Despite the third stage being INCREDIBLY creepy, it would be nice if there was something to investigate or something more significant to look at in some of those doll-filled rooms (something like the bible, meat grinder, or teeth in the sink).
• The enemy not making baby noises seems like a rather glaring missed opportunity. I can understand if you thought it would make it seem less monstrous, but, I mean, the human brain is literally hardwired to find the sound of baby crying unpleasant! I was expecting it to make a horrible, screeching, squealing cry if it spotted you. Again, you may have tested this and found that it being silent was scarier; I'm drawing on my experience playing Silent Hill 2 and listening to the horrible snarling noises those straightjacket things make in the apartment building.

I didn't encounter any obvious glitches, but I encountered some things that may have been bugs:

• In the dark "why have you forsaken me" room in stage 2, when I investigated the writing on the wall with the candle, it cut to a graphic of the wall, stark-white and brightly lit, with a thin, dark circle around the writing. I feel like everything inside the circle was supposed to be lit and everything outside was supposed to be shaded out.
• The growl and then instadeath in the basement seemed a lot longer than it did before. I seem to recall the death/waking up happening right as the growl reached its peak, but it happened like a full second or more after the growl stopped. Not sure if this was a bug or not.
• During the "chase" in stage 3, I don't know how it's programmed, so I don't know if this is a bug or not, but it seemed like I got a late start to running, and I reacted rather slowly to the door, so I pretty much sucked at the whole thing, but right before I went through the door, I sidestepped it or something and it ran right past me, and just before the camera cut away to the other room, it like looked up and scratched it's head or something?

These are crazy-as-hell suggestions that would require significant changes or new content, so take them with a handful of salt. Like, a lethal amount of salt.

• Some kind of inclement weather in stage 1. I know a daaaaaark and spoooooky night might be cliche, but it seems like a trip to an Edward Gorey graveyard just doesn't feel complete without dead leaves blowing across the ground.
• Perhaps Thomas (that is his name, right?) can clutch his chest with one hand when he pants after running out of stamina.
• Perhaps when he runs with the candle, he could cup his hand in front of the flame so that (thematically) it doesn't blow out.
• Perhaps when you set the candle down in the basement, it could slowly die instead of immediately snuffing out. Or if it has to go out immediately, maybe you could add some kind of snort and a split-second animation like it got blown out, or something could drip on it from the ceiling and extinguish it.
• Perhaps there could be a little blood splatter on the floor/wall where the axe is resting when you wake up in stage 2. I don't know why, it seems more appropriate.
• Alright, this is the big, crazy one. The enemy is scary as hell, to be sure, but I think it would be a lot scarier if you couldn't see anything when you're inside a wardrobe. I've thought of a few ways to do this that, in theory, wouldn't involve creating tons and tons of new assets.

1. The first way is to essentially rotate the camera 180 degrees so the player sees a cutaway of the inside of the wardrobe from the back, and themselves cowering inside it, in the middle of a black void. The doors are open a crack so it looks like you can see outside to the hallway through a tiny slit, so you can see when the thing walks by, but only through a narrow window, so you can't see it clearly.
2. The second option is same as above, except to basically not rotate the camera, so we see a cutaway of the wardrobe from the front, and Thomas cowering inside it. Now, I have no idea how your dynamic shadows system (engine?) works, because I'm not a programmer, so it's all basically magic to me, and I have no idea if this would work within your pre-existing...thing. But, there would be a slit of light from the bottom of the doors, and when the thing walks by, it blots out the light, so you would see its shadow pass as you hear it walk by.
3. The third way is to cut to a graphic, similar to the other things that we see from Thomas' point of view, looking down on the light fanning across the bottom of the wardrobe and use the same light/shadow thing from the second option.

Like I said. Crazy.

[matt]

You don't sound pretentious. I love to hear all forms of praise.

Eduardo replaced my temp pant sounds with better stuff, so they may be final. Eduardo was thinking that we'd have the actual VO actor do the final breathing noises, but I'm not sure that's necessary.

The picture wasn't supposed to be hilarious, but they are supposed to look like an unhappy family. Besides the fact that the entire mood of the game is supposed to be miserable, everyone in old pictures look unhappy.

Feel free to take credit for the sniffing idea. I honestly have no idea when I came up with it, so it may have been from your suggestion.

With regard to the backer portraits, I agree with your feedback. I do think they stand out in a way that I didn't intend, so we have to work on that.

Part of the issue is that we have two artists doing the portraits. Chris did the backer portraits and Adam did the other portraits. I'm not sure it’s possible for them to have their styles line up perfectly. Chris does all the character art where Adam does the environment art, which is why Adam did the other portraits. I think having Chris do more portraits will help them stand out less.

I think our plan is to put them less frequently in the game as well as try to make them fit better in the world. There is one of them that I feel like works where it is partially in the shadows and cobwebs, and I think it really fit. I think we’ll have to be more intelligent about the placement to make them feel more like part of the world.

The bird scare pacing never sat 100% right with me because as you said, it’s back to back with some other jump scares, but I’m a bit torn with what to do. My inclination might be to stretch out the first level. I was worried that people would find it too mundane, so we’d want to breeze through it, but people seem pretty happy with it, so maybe they wouldn’t mind spending a bit more time inside the mansion, so I can better space things out.

The names on the gravestones are not temp. Most of them are people’s actual names, so I’m not sure what feels out of place other than perhaps “Matt Gilgenbot”, which one backer wanted on his tombstone, and I wasn’t thrilled about. I might be able to convince him to change it… Are there any others that stand out as wrong?

We are planning to have closer looks in the 3rd level but just ran out of time. :-/ We’ll go back and add them at some point.

For the baby monster, others have suggested to give it a baby voice. It seems like a reasonable idea, and I will run it by the sound designer when he resumes work on our game. As far as crying, no comment. I have some plans along those lines.

Is the “forsaken” bug reproducible? If so, can you take a screenshot? It is supposed to be white inside the circle, and our dark animated crosshatch shader pattern outside.

The baby monster will scratch his head when you duck into a cabinet when it notices you in the regular segments. It will do that in the chase segment as well, but the camera is supposed to cut first. Maybe I’ll extend its chase behavior, so that it doesn’t scratch its head. That is a good catch.

All of your crazy as hell suggestions sound good, but it’s always a question of time. We don’t have a ton. Not nearly as much as I’d like. The original schedule for the game was much longer, but I cut the game down as much as possible to make the kickstarter budget feasible. Unfortunately, that means it can’t be as polished as I’d like.

While I think having a first person viewpoint in the cabinet would be nice, I’m not sure it would work with the gameplay. How do you know when to leave the cabinet if you can’t see? I ran into this problem in Outlast where I would think it’d be safe to exit, but it turns out I just couldn’t see the enemy, and it was quite frustrating. I found myself hiding for really long periods of time which was… boring.

Anyway, you’ve given me a lot to think about. Thanks for playing through the build and providing your thoughts. Did you take the survey?
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/25Z7JMM

[Grabthehoopka]

Yes, I did take the survey.

Alright, looking back, you're right about the cupboard hiding thing. I was thinking more along the lines of Amnesia/Silent Hill 2, who did it right because the enemies you were hiding from went away, and it was so memorable because they did it well. Outlast didn't do it as well because the enemies patrolled, they didn't go away. Although, unlike Neverending Nightmares, the enemies didn't have set patrols and just kind of wandered around, and that's primarily why it got frustrating sometimes. But anyways, I agree with you.

I thought the opening level was a fantastic way to start the game, and I so would not mind spending more time there to let the atmosphere steep. By all means, stretch it out.

I felt like they were placeholders because of seeing familiar names from the dev team, but primarily "Johann Sebastien Gilgenbach" and "Matt Gilgenbot". Being right in the front row didn't help.

I could try to reproduce the forsaken room glitch. I didn't take a screenshot cause I thought it was being recorded at the time.

Anyways, I'm glad I could help in some way! looking forward to the next build!