234 - Intrinsic vs. Extrinsic Rewards

[matt]

The problem is if we go too far down that rabbit-hole, you get a super confusing and unplayable game. haha Still, the idea itself is interesting, and I'll keep that in mind for future brainstorming!

[Grabthehoopka]

Hm. I do like the idea of a map that changes every time you look at it, although I'm sure you could achieve the desired effect while still keeping it functionally useful each time you use it. Like if it's the floorplan for the building, but every time you look at it, there's different drawings or scribbles on different parts of the map. I actually really like this idea. You could have the map double as your hint system, like Silent Hill, or if you're feeling particularly triple A, as your diary/journal entry system, like you investigate something of interest, they write a little one-sentence description next to it on the map. If they're nuts/going nuts/reality is coming into question, you can have mad, scrawling scribbles and text that the protagonist writes all over the map start appearing that's gone the next time you look at it, or start seeing messages directly addressed to them, like someone is speaking to them, written in their own handwriting. Or, if they're not going nuts, you could have text and scribblings in multiple colors of ink and different handwriting, like a bunch of people are doodling all over your map when you aren't looking at it.

As for the immersion problem, I'd just have looking at the map not pause the game. There'd be an animation of the character pulling out the map and unfolding it, and it'd pop up without taking up the whole screen, with the ambient music and sounds still playing, to make it clear that the game's still going. When they close the map, the map would disappear and the character would put it back in their pocket. Even though I don't think you would ever let yourself design the game in such a way that the player would get lost and have to keep pulling the map out over and over again, I'd make the map putting away animation really, really short, like just them quickly tucking it into their pocket or something, in case the player hears danger, closes it in a panic and is forced to watch as the character whistles a happy tune and casually, slowly folds up the map and tucks it perfectly back into their pocket while a zombie is chewing on their ankle (you wouldn't use zombies either). Also, I'd make the map close button not the same as the map open button, so if they hit the map open button and then push it again while the character is taking the map out, the map display will just pop up without them having to wait for the animation to finish, but if the same button closed the map, then they would probably close the map before discovering that they can do this. Instead of having a close map button, maybe just pressing one of the directional buttons or moving closes it. I don't know, you're the game designer, you probably already have a stance on such things.

I'm all for not having collectable audio and text diary pages, and I like the idea of going for a sort of "crime scene" design standpoint, and leaving the player to deduce what happened in the past based on environmental clues. (Although if you do need help writing prose, remember, there are people on the forums that can help out, some of whom are aspiring writers, cough cough.)

[matt]

I think we are getting a bit off topic. I've decided that I'd like to have closer looks that add some background to the setting or little hints about the story. Will that be enough to motivate people to explore, or do I need to add achievements and/or a list that shows what you've picked up and what you are missing? Is that too game-y or the right amount of game-y?

The map stuff sounds cool, but I'd rather design a game where a map isn't necessary if I can. We'll see how that goes.

[Grabthehoopka]

I think that sounds fine, as long as the list isn't very prominent. I'm not the kind of person that normally cares for such a thing, but if you held the number up to me and told me I missed stuff while I'm playing, then I would definitely care and it would take me out of the experience. As long as you don't call too much attention to it, but the information is still accessible if I'm looking for it, I think that's fine.

[evilkinggumby]

I think we are getting a bit off topic. I've decided that I'd like to have closer looks that add some background to the setting or little hints about the story. Will that be enough to motivate people to explore, or do I need to add achievements and/or a list that shows what you've picked up and what you are missing? Is that too game-y or the right amount of game-y?

if you decided to do that(add items to examine and give background/story/setting) I think it would help a lot. It would give those that like to explore something to get out of it, it would give those that are really into narrative or characters something else to look for, and for those that want to feel really invested and immersed, it would fill out the "world" and let them appreciate it more.

achievements/lists are ok but personally I'd like to see a setting in the options menu to toggle it, or a prompt in the beginning of the game (like the screen in NeN that mentions the headphone/audio design) . If you had a screen talking about it before the action begins, and a toggle in the options screens, that would be ideal. It gives folk who don't care about achievements a chance to turn it off, and it gives folk who leave it on and find it annoying later a way to turn it off mid-game. As well it gives those that want it/need it to enjoy the game the chance to leave it on and see their completion rating.

[Grabthehoopka]

Perhaps you could have achievements, but program it in such a way that the achievement doesn't trigger until after you pause or quit the game, so the "achievement get!" notification doesn't pop up during gameplay?

[matt]

Well, for the present, I'm thinking that I'd like to make the list not accessible during gameplay. It'd just be a bonus in the main menu you can review when you weren't playing the game.

While I'd love to only trigger the achievement out of game, that might not be allowed if we do console releases. There are all sorts of crazy rules about achievements and when you award them in order to prevent people from cheating. Fortunately, on Steam, you can do whatever you want.

Anyway, that's a problem we can worry about later.