202 - Game Objectives

Developer diaries about creating Neverending Nightmares.
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matt
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202 - Game Objectives

Post by matt »

In this video, I talk about the importance of game objectives to motivate the player to keep playing and how the seemingly directionless nightmares in Neverending Nightmares might not have been the best choice.

-Matt Gilgenbach
Lead Frightener at Infinitap Games
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evilkinggumby
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Re: 202 - Game Objectives

Post by evilkinggumby »

From what I am seeing you say in this video, and other videos, I think I am finally starting to piece together what you were shooting for in your game. It seems like you didn't want the puzzles to get in the way of the horror. You didn't make it narrative focused (on purpose) and you also chose not to have too many interactable objects so the experience and immersion (the horror) could take center stage. I think in another video you actually likened the experience to being dis-empowered as if going through a fun house without any control. You wanted a feeling of confusion, aimlessness and roaming and in a lot of ways the need to have many "game elements" in the game was in direct conflict with what you were trying to achieve.

It sounds like a lot of the early "experiences" they have released for the Oculus rift are what you want to make. They are minimally interactive, total immersion type games where really you just walk through and explore a location and stuff happens to confuse, disorient, and scare the player. Some have you just sitting in one lcation and holding onto the keyboard(Don't Let Go), some are you just strapped in a chair and looking around as stuff changes(The Chair). There's a bunch of them I've caught wind of so far from various youtubers and really THIS is what it seems like was your goal: a game where the focus is entirely on the experience, and not on any kind of traditional game play. Because everything that traditionally means "gameplay" was neither a focus or is a possible hindrance to immersion (and so spoils your focus on 'the horror' ) .

I think for sequals and all future projects like this, if you really want to create experiential horror, you may want to start researching into the Rift technology. Or in the least look at stereoscopic 3d programming(and you can still work primarily do 2d but use the 3d to layer the scene and give ti a better sense of immersion). I think honing your focus and being able to forgo the conventions of typical games nowadays, and JUST being able to create something that gives someone the immersive experience itself, will produce something that will: work for your goals, have a proper set of expectations by the consumer, and so result in your vision fitting it's own niche and not trying to find its audience in a different crowd. Because selling "a horrific experience" to "video game players" is going to produce very hit or miss reviews due to everyone's leniency and interpretation.

Games usually need objectives. That's a common expectation, and is why you get that question about NeN (and why some panned the game). Horrific experiences don't. Immersive environments (designed to evoke certain responses, emotions, and feelings) also don't. They don't need characters, story, plot, or lore. They don't need QTE's or inventory screens or a HUD. All they need is what the experience itself demands.
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matt
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Re: 202 - Game Objectives

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The Rift has no commercial release date. No one knows how big the audience is. While I would love to make games for the Rift that are pure horror experiences, I don't think it would be a good business move. We aren't doing super hot in that department, and to limit our audience from anyone who has a computer to game developers who preordered a $350 developer's kit is a bad idea.

While one could argue you can make a 3D game and just add Occulus Rift support, Palmer Luckey has said that a game needs to be designed for VR, and I'd agree. The flip side of that is that a great VR game may be really underwhelming without the headset, so I don't want to go there.

While Neverending Nightmares had design goals that made it alienating to some people, we can do things differently in the next project. We will probably have clearer objectives and a story. It may still be told in fragments through nightmares, but I think creating a game with characters that have personality rather than characters who are abstract symbols will go a long way to addressing some of the criticisms without making a game that is fundamentally different than what I want to make.
-Matt Gilgenbach
Lead Frightener at Infinitap Games
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RightClickSaveAs
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Re: 202 - Game Objectives

Post by RightClickSaveAs »

I'm not convinced that even when the Oculus Rift finally comes out it's going to have a huge adoption rate among average users. It looks really amazing, but the pricing and PC requirements are probably going to keep it in the niche market for a while, even with all the marketing push it's going to get now that Facebook is involved. Especially with budget conscious consumers, which seems to be an issue even for the relatively low $15 price tag of NN.
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Re: 202 - Game Objectives

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I think Oculus is going to have a slow adoption rate in terms of the general public. I'm sure they can get to a few million units quickly with enthusiasts, but beyond that, I think it's going to be a tough sell. My wife plays a bunch of video games with me, but will she want to play VR? I suspect not. If I ever get goggles, I'll get her to give it a whirl, but she has no interest in it, and half the time doesn't want to wear 3D glasses to watch movies.

For budget consumers, it'll be interesting to see how GearVR does since you can use a phablet you already have, but even that costs $199... I'm not sure if that includes the gamepad. Maybe Google Cardboard is the future? However, because of the steep hardware requirements of VR, I think it'll be a long while before there are really compelling experiences in mobile VR.

Assuming the market is a few million units, we'd need to get a significant portion of the market to make ends meet, which is always going to be tough - especially with the number of free VR demos. If I had an Oculus, I'd just play those all the time.

Still, I think VR is really cool, and I'd definitely be interested in developing for it if it made sense financially. I think it's going to turn into a graphics arms race as soon as the audience is large enough, which is going to be tough for an indie to compete in.
-Matt Gilgenbach
Lead Frightener at Infinitap Games
ranger_lennier
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Re: 202 - Game Objectives

Post by ranger_lennier »

I really liked the atmosphere in the Kickstarter demo, but I feel like it would have been tough to stretch that out through the entire game. The puzzle was really easy, and there wasn't any real danger, unless you count going into the basement without a candle. So I'm glad you added some variety to the later levels with enemy encounters.
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Re: 202 - Game Objectives

Post by evilkinggumby »

matt wrote:Assuming the market is a few million units, we'd need to get a significant portion of the market to make ends meet, which is always going to be tough - especially with the number of free VR demos. If I had an Oculus, I'd just play those all the time.
How much of a market share are you looking for?

I admit VR and a lot of the varying tech is still in an early stage, but I see a number of platforms getting into it. I did mention just doing stereoscopic 3d as an alternative to consider for creating "immersive experiences" as most computers with nvidia chipsets can output 3d to varying types of screens. It isn't as immersive as full vision VR but it's already out there and fairly common within the market. As well games using this method use glasses to view it, which means one person can play while the other watches (2 glasses necessary, of course). Would your wife do that? not likely, especially if she isn't into 3d movies much. Is your wife a proper analog for judging the market, common gamers, or your target audience? I have no idea.

It SOUNDS like you want to create an immersive experience to evoke a reaction and really touch the player/consumer in a specific way but you also want to ensure there is a strong enough market to make a profit on the game (cause just breaking even doesn't afford you much ground for future endeavors really). It also sounds like what you've been saying in more and more of your video's is that you are going to potentially add back in more game elements you tried to not use (or minimize) in NeN to reach the gamer audience and make your game more palatable.

IMO this means you are going to sacrifice your original vision for something more mainstream and sellable. I know that sounds like a bated statement, but it isn't. Your original intentions for NeN and what you wanted it to be has proven somewhat successful, but also drawing significant criticism (and much of it is for ideas you implemented intentionally). I don't see you adding in a number of facets to a sequel as a BAD thing, but I do expect a significant backhanded comment tsunami if this next project were to be highly successful and popular. And by backhanded tsunami I mean " Neverending Nightmares 2 gets everything right that the first did not. Now we have clear objectives, a strong compelling narrative, interactive environments, more blood, ninja's, rocket launchers and tons of nudity! " :lol: They'll compare 1 to 2 and really implant how "bad" the first game was because it lacked x y and z. Which is not really fair. or accurate.
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matt
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Re: 202 - Game Objectives

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I have a 3D TV and my wife isn't really thrilled to watch 3D movies. As much as I love 3D content on my TV, it is a totally different experience than VR. I would argue that you could have really compelling VR without a 3D screen although there wouldn't really be a point. Have you tried VR? At least in my experience, the thing hat makes it special is the head tracking.

Try closing one eye. You don't have depth perception but you can still experience the world fully. You get a better understanding of 3D space by looking around. Getting looking around to work right is the holy grail of VR. It is actually a really hard problem because you can turn your head really fast. Once they nail that, VR still won't be super compelling. They have to add eye tracking, so you can look around without moving your head. No one is far on that, and it can get weird only being able to see the world in focus when you look straight ahead.

Neverending Nightmares was a very personal game trying to accomplish very specific goals. My next project hasn't been decided yet, so there are some things that I am willing to improve. I still want to stick with the things that I think worked well on Neverending Nightmares (a focus on immersion by not having HUD/UI), but I am considering feedback when designing the next one. Since I didn't have an original vision for the next game - just ideas - I'm not really sacrificing anything.

I'm not sure what the next game will be called. It may not be named anything like Neverending Nightmares. It may be Neverending Nightmares 2. That will probably come down to a marketing decision. If people like the new game more than the last, I don't think I'm in a position to complain. :)
-Matt Gilgenbach
Lead Frightener at Infinitap Games
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Re: 202 - Game Objectives

Post by evilkinggumby »

I will agree VR is a whole next step in the evolutino of immersion, but I have personally played a number of games in stereoscopic 3d on a 100" screen and even sitting closer on a 40" 3d tv and the jump in immersion from 2d gaming to 3d is about as significant as 3d going to VR. That is to say, it is still a pretty significant leap.

Fire up skyrim on the pc and force it into 3d (it doesn't have native support, you have to overwrite a file and do a few tweaks to get it to work). It's pretty impressive and VERY immersive.

Keep in mind immersion is better with vr cause you just have to move your head, but a lot of gamers still can appreciate 3d with a gamepad and 3d tv and feel immersed. You and your wife's experiences/preferences are not necessarily reflective of the entire gamer community.
If people like the new game more than the last, I don't think I'm in a position to complain.
Lol I am going to hold you to that! :) lol
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matt
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Re: 202 - Game Objectives

Post by matt »

I love my 3DTV, but it is important to note that pretty much everyone has given up on support. PS4 doesn't play 3D Blu-rays and Xbox One didn't at launch. Sony had a number of 3D first party titles (Uncharted, etc), but their recent releases haven't supported it.

If you search on google, TV manufacturers expected 3D TV to be a reason for consumers to replace their perfectly fine 1080p TVs, but the sales were a big disappointment. The TV industry has moved on to 4K as the next "innovation" that they hope consumers will warm up to. While you can get 3D TVs still, I think a lot of the newer ones don't have support. I hope they don't stop making 3D TVs completely, but I don't think the future looks bright.

Specifically for games, as much as I love when they support 3D, I don't end up playing all the games that do support it because low framerates can hurt my eyes, or crosstalk can be really troublesome. Some games turn the contrast way down for 3D, and then it looks crappy. :-/
-Matt Gilgenbach
Lead Frightener at Infinitap Games
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