Neverending Nightmares PAX impressions?

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Neverending Nightmares PAX impressions?

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Hey Matt, I heard you talk a little in the Kickstarter updates and such about PAX, but I was wondering if there was anything in particular that surprised you about the reactions you had from getting the game exposed to a much larger and diverse crowd. I saw in a couple LPs and from one of the videos you linked to that some people seemed to have trouble with the baby monsters. As a lot of us around here have been playing the alpha builds from the start, it seems pretty straightforward to us now, but was there anything you needed to rethink design wise so no one will get frustrated?
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Re: Neverending Nightmares PAX impressions?

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Well, at GDC, people did seem to have trouble with it, so I changed a bunch of stuff in the 0.3 build. I think that helped for PAX. A few people did seem to have trouble with the second setup where you need to follow the baby monster to get to the second closer.

It is always interesting to me to see how people react to the baby monsters. Some people seemed to think they needed to run forward to "trigger" the monster, and then run back. Then they didn't really know what to do.

The real question is how long will it take people to figure it out, and how frustrated/unhappy they will be as they figure it out. Most people who like horror games have a pretty high tolerance for frustration I think. Obviously, I am trying to make a much more accessible game than most horror titles, but I guess I can draw some consolation from that...

Still, I don't want to make excuses, but I'm not quite sure what to do about people who get stuck there. Maybe if you die too much, I'll change the setup somewhat. Maybe they slow down? Maybe a different cabinet arrangement appears? Maybe they monster doesn't appear at all? I can probably figure something out, but I think I can put it off until later.

I am a big proponent of dynamic difficulty adjustment, and even managed to come up with something for Retro/Grade. We probably were the first rhythm game with dynamic difficulty adjustment. :)
-Matt Gilgenbach
Lead Frightener at Infinitap Games
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Re: Neverending Nightmares PAX impressions?

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matt wrote: The real question is how long will it take people to figure it out, and how frustrated/unhappy they will be as they figure it out. Most people who like horror games have a pretty high tolerance for frustration I think. Obviously, I am trying to make a much more accessible game than most horror titles, but I guess I can draw some consolation from that...
I'd definitely agree with that, I'll put up with a lot in a horror game. The latest example I can think of was Outlast, I'm bad at getting around 3D environments, and the asylum was kind of a maze. If I hadn't been so into the game, I might have given up after the 3rd or 4th time of not being able to find that vent opening or door I needed to go through. As it is, I died a LOT in Outlast, and spent way too much time wandering around lost, yet still loved it.

But I was surprised when I saw people having problems figuring out they just needed to walk behind the monster. It seemed like a fairly simple patrol puzzle, but it's probably good information to have, the fact that it's not going to be obvious to everyone.

I liked how Amnesia: Dark Descent handled monsters if you died too much to them, eventually they'd just go away. I don't know if that's the best solution, especially for other games, but it worked pretty well there. I don't think I could have gotten past a few of them, like one in the sewer that patrolled around right near the exit.
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Re: Neverending Nightmares PAX impressions?

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I think the difficulty with the puzzle is that not everyone realizes they just patrol because the first thing they do is run forward to "trigger" the enemy, and then once they trigger it, it follows them, then turns around and walk back. That's not actually what is happening, but since they can't see the source code, their guess for the behavior is valid. I don't know a way to hint that they are just following REALLY simple patrol paths. I also am not sure if that is the best solution because if you see behind the curtain, it gets less scary.

I might do something similar to what you suggested. It is probably the easiest from an implementation standpoint, since you basically track deaths and then disable the monsters. I think the BEST solution would be to come up with different but easier setups, but that is making more work for yourself.

Apparently they did that in some places in Amnesia. In Thomas Grip's GDC talks, I believe the example he used was with the water monster. If you die too much there, then it doesn't spawn at first. You play for a bit and then it surprises you by spawning in a different place. That is pretty cool, but extra work because you have to design everything twice. Plus, I can't think of an interesting way to make the second set up interesting other than basically repeating the first by having one cabinet. I guess maybe I could add a 3rd cabinet? That might be cool.

Anyway, you've given me a lot to think about. Thanks! :)
-Matt Gilgenbach
Lead Frightener at Infinitap Games
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Re: Neverending Nightmares PAX impressions?

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matt wrote:I think the difficulty with the puzzle is that not everyone realizes they just patrol because the first thing they do is run forward to "trigger" the enemy, and then once they trigger it, it follows them, then turns around and walk back. That's not actually what is happening, but since they can't see the source code, their guess for the behavior is valid. I don't know a way to hint that they are just following REALLY simple patrol paths. I also am not sure if that is the best solution because if you see behind the curtain, it gets less scary.
Ohhh, I didn't even think about that. Yeah I forgot that for most people brand new to the game, their first encounter with the monster will be when it sees them and starts running at them. Maybe make it so if you die a couple times, they extend their patrol to walk past where the player is hiding just that once so the player knows that's the time to get out of there? Or would that break the pathing and pacing you have already set up?

And maybe another option for just general monster difficulty other than removing them would be to make them get slightly slower each time, giving the player more time to hide or run away? I don't know how much of a pain that would be to do either though. I'm just full of ideas today that may be a ton of work to actually put in! :P
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Re: Neverending Nightmares PAX impressions?

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Ohhh, I didn't even think about that. Yeah I forgot that for most people brand new to the game, their first encounter with the monster will be when it sees them and starts running at them. Maybe make it so if you die a couple times, they extend their patrol to walk past where the player is hiding just that once so the player knows that's the time to get out of there? Or would that break the pathing and pacing you have already set up?
I am not sure that would help. At least from what I've seen, they pretty much always trigger the baby's detection behavior, so they don't really understand that he is patrolling. I'm not sure if there is a good solution to make sure they realize he is patrolling...
And maybe another option for just general monster difficulty other than removing them would be to make them get slightly slower each time, giving the player more time to hide or run away?
Removing them is easy, and that's something I am considering. Slowing them down isn't hard, but I'm not sure that would help for setup 2 where you have to follow him.

I've been giving this some thought, and I think maybe the best solution is to turn on a 3rd cabinet in the middle of the setup. That way I don't have to get rid of it but assuming they completed the first enemy setup, they should be able to beat the second one since with a middle cabinet, it'll be very similar to get past.

I really appreciate your suggestions!
-Matt Gilgenbach
Lead Frightener at Infinitap Games
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