Art Style for Neverending Nightmares 2?

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evilkinggumby
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Re: Art Style for Neverending Nightmares 2?

Postby evilkinggumby » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:20 am

if 100k is 50% of a fraction of the actual cost then what, the actual dev cost is moving towards 200k or more? Why not shoot for that on the kickstarter then? Or do you not feel you could get enough support to reach that goal and succeed? I Know the first one was a rough ride til the very end. Or are you also taking into account lost revenue from NeN and trying to recoup the business side of things?

The last campaign was the 100k so I would figure if the next game is better, using more sophisticated visuals and tricks and overall gives the consumer more than NeN trying to shoot a little higher wouldn't be bad. 150k? I guess i am now worried you will shoot so low with the Kickstarter because of fears of not raising enough money at a higher tier, you're actually bucking for too far under the budget you need and so the next game will be gimped not by anything else but lack of funds and time, releasing to lackluster reviews and feeling under developed. Which seems like a pointless gesture.
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matt
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Re: Art Style for Neverending Nightmares 2?

Postby matt » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:46 pm

The real dev costs are probably going to be $400k minimum. That may seem like a lot, but we have 7 people working on the game (although only 4 are 100% full time). A large part of that is paying the employees, but there are a lot of other things we pay for like software, computer hardware, internet hosting, kickstarter rewards, doing PAX and other trade shows, etc.

I'm not sure why you are worried that we will not have enough budget to make a game. We delivered on time and on budget for Neverending Nightmares, and while perhaps not everyone was happy with the game (maybe you aren't?), I think we met our kickstarter goals admirably and most people who backed the project were pleased with what we did. At the very least we delivered a product, which is a lot more than many kickstarter campaigns. Perhaps I'm impatient, but if a project is at least a year late, I get worried.

We know what we are doing, so I think worrying about us asking for little money is a big odd unless you didn't like Neverending Nightmares. I guess if you felt like the game was bad, then I'm not sure you'll like the next one, but I think it'll be less polarizing.

We plan to deliver a great game in the constraints we have, but if we can get more funding, we can make it better.
-Matt Gilgenbach
Lead Frightener at Infinitap Games

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evilkinggumby
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Re: Art Style for Neverending Nightmares 2?

Postby evilkinggumby » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:29 am

don't mind me.. it's my irrational paranoia. if you guys are used to this then it ain't no thang.

I don't like how when I feared for you guys not getting enough money to make the game you want to make (which is actually supportive if you think about it, I am worried about your creations well being in a way) you turn it into me potentially calling the last game poop and that you'll fail again. Thats some negative mind bending dude.
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matt
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Re: Art Style for Neverending Nightmares 2?

Postby matt » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:02 am

Given your heavy criticism of the last game, I honestly don't know if you liked the last one. That wasn't supposed to be accusatory. If you don't like the last game, I respect your opinion. I'm working hard to create something that will leave fewer players disappointed. When I look at Steam reviews and see that 21% give the game a thumbs down, that makes me feel like I did a bad job in some ways setting the expectations for what the game is. Neverending Nightmares was never meant to be a game for everyone, but I was shooting for more thumbs up. Hopefully we can improve in that aspect with the next project, but I think it's going to be more evolutionary than revolutionary.

Anyway, I apologize if my post sounded accusatory or whatever. That wasn't my intention.
-Matt Gilgenbach
Lead Frightener at Infinitap Games

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evilkinggumby
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Re: Art Style for Neverending Nightmares 2?

Postby evilkinggumby » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:44 am

This might be hard to understand but I'll try to explain it a little bit (for the sake of transparency).

It's not that I don't like NeN. It is more a factor of I fell in love with what NeN could have been, and the potential it seemingly had. The expectations I had for it, of what you guys could have accomplished and released, far outweigh the actual game you put out. It is a soul crushing disappointment, kind of like seeing the prequal star wars movies and realizing all the hype and decades of lead up produced something questionably sub par and more miss than hit.. lol

It is an unfair assessment and somewhat irrational, I know this. Which is why I don't HATE NeN for what it is. Knowing what it fund raised, what it cost to make, what your team is capable of, and the time constraints you had, I actually am of the mind what you did is 'adequate' and in some aspects, impressive. Whereas I will never call NeN a "perfect" game, I wouldn';t call it a total mess/travesty either.

Which is why I am not of the mind to assume the next game will do the same necessarily, nor will I expect nearly as much from it irrationally. This time I think my expectations are a lot different, more realistic to your capabilities, and so any fears worries doubts or opinions I have at this point are (hopefully) in line with the project and not some inflated dream.

Still, I like to see people hit theri maximum potential so I will always want to see you guys really kick ass. I lowered the bar for NeN2: Electric Spookey Poo but it is still (slightly)higher than NeN as it is released currently.

Everyone seemed to love the art style and audio presentation of NeN and I suspect this next game will have just as much love in those realms (this seems to be a strength of your team). The big hang up or worry I think folk may have is if the game will have more "gamey" elements lacking from NeN so it feels like a more traditional and interactive experience. If the second game in this series is a lot of the same (nice window dressing and immersive audio but limited gameplay and a plodding pace) you'll see folk citing a "pattern" and your studio is going to start getting..well..typcast, so to speak. And that would be BAD, as it is the start of your death throws as a company. From what you said, there are already plans to change up a number of details in this new game, both visually, gameplay wise, and narratively, so I am of the mind this won't be an issue. THIS is why i think you'll do great on Kickstarter; you'll show signs of growth and progress and can easily offer a sense of evolution and refinement to your game. That is something people can get behind if it holds true.

But make no mistake: if Nen 2: Nightmare Harder is akin to Nen 1 with a different coat of paint and a new soundtrack (generally speaking) you will catch a lot of hell. Stagnation and being formulaic is not something folk want to see carry over from AAA titles to indies.. hehehe .

So in regards to this thread itself... any new word or sketches of the art style chosen? I know you are shooting for a title for thr game and struggling in the other threads. I would say the art style for this next game will be key to a title, as the aesthetic flavor of the game should compliment or at least match the feel of the title. Posibly look at the style you're expecting to use and think " what kind of a title would fit this perfectly? ". I know choosing the title based on the topic/content/antagonist and lore is proving hard.. possibly this will be a different angle to consider and inspiration will strike since it is a bit more open ended and allows a bit of abstract free thinking?
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matt
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Re: Art Style for Neverending Nightmares 2?

Postby matt » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:44 am

I understand now. Thanks for the clarification. The art style is greyscale watercolor. It isn't exactly what I had in mind originally, but the artists really wanted to use greys and they put together some awesome stuff, so I'm really happy with it. We still have a dynamic darkness system, but it feels pretty different since it's watercolor-y instead of a bunch of lines. (It was actually way harder to get right than on Neverending Nightmares)

I want to hold off on screenshots since we are still tweaking and improving our art.
-Matt Gilgenbach
Lead Frightener at Infinitap Games

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evilkinggumby
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Re: Art Style for Neverending Nightmares 2?

Postby evilkinggumby » Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:54 am

wow i am intrigued. watercolor is hard, i am guessing you are doing more of an india ink type work with washes to get greys and more subtle tones? If it was true watercolor it wouldn't have much of any line work, and the whole look of it would be light and somewhat airy. Gouache has more opaque water color effects, but india ink sounds more akin to what your talking about since it can be a mixture of stark line-work, washes, brushwork and subtle tones. either way.. it sounds like it will be very very pretty and a stark change from NeN's look and feel. In a way it allows for a very organic, less tight and linear feel, which, depending on the themes and style of the story, could really do wonders to amp up the atmosphere and presentation to the player.
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matt
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Re: Art Style for Neverending Nightmares 2?

Postby matt » Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:45 am

Well, I'm no expert, but I think the artists have said it is a bit closer to ink wash than watercolor, but we are trying to keep the sort of loose feel of watercolor. I think the art style definitely suits the setting of the next game better than the line work.
-Matt Gilgenbach
Lead Frightener at Infinitap Games

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evilkinggumby
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Re: Art Style for Neverending Nightmares 2?

Postby evilkinggumby » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:24 pm

haha have the screen get splotchey/washed out as if the page was getting soaked in tears as the game gets more emotional or intense.. thatd be a trippy transition! (and a total pain in the ass to do on a tight budget) lol

I still think pairing the title with the art style could work. sit down and write a list of words describing the visual style you guys are shooting for. do any of those adjectives work with the titles you're kicking around?
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matt
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Re: Art Style for Neverending Nightmares 2?

Postby matt » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:01 am

I'm not really good at describing the art style since it's watercolor, but maybe more ink wash or.... I don't know. So I'm not sure I can really come up with anything good with the exception of "254 Shades of Grey" but that name is already taken. :(
-Matt Gilgenbach
Lead Frightener at Infinitap Games


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